In an episode we first ran back in 2019, we explore how a sunken nuclear submarine, a crazy billionaire, and a mechanical claw gave birth to a phrase that has hounded journalists and lawyers for 40 years and embodies the tension between the public’s desire for transparency and the government’s need to keep secrets.
Whether it comes from government spokespeople or celebrity publicists, the phrase “can neither confirm nor deny” is the perfect non-denial denial. It’s such a perfect deflection that it seems like it’s been around forever, but reporter Julia Barton takes us back to the 1970s and the surprising origin story of what’s now known as a “Glomar Response.” With help from David Sharp and Walt Logan, we tell the story of a clandestine CIA operation to lift a sunken Soviet submarine from the ocean floor and the dilemma they faced when the world found out about it. It’s an episode we first released in 2014, but given some things in the news recently, it resonated with us again.
In the 40 years since that operation, the Glomar Response has become boilerplate language from an array of government agencies. With help from ProPublica editor Jeff Larson and NPR’s Dina Temple-Raston, we explore the implications of this ultimate information dodge. ACLU lawyer Jameel Jaffer explains how it stymies oversight, and we learn that, even 40 years later, governmental secrecy can be emotionally painful.
More information about Glomar:
After 40 years, many of the details of Project Azorian are only now coming to light. The US government’s default position has been to keep as much of it classified as possible. It took three years for retired CIA employee David Sharp to get permission to publish his account of Project Azorian. And FOIA played an indirect role in that, as Cold War historians got the CIA to release, in redacted form, an internal history of the mission. After that and a threat of legal action, Sharp was finally able to publish his manuscript in 2012.
We mentioned conspiracy theories that have swirled around Project Azorian filling the void where official silence has reigned. One of them is promulgated in the 2005 book “Red Star Rogue” by Kenneth Sewell and Clint Richmond. They posit that the K-129 was taken over by rogue Stalinist KGB agents in order to start a nuclear conflict. But the conflict was to be between the US and China, as, according to the authors, the sub had powers to disguise its sonic signature as a Chinese Navy vessel.
This book is the basis of the 2013 drama “Phantom,” which features Ed Harris and David Duchovny as Soviet military officers who sip vodka in a very un-Russian way.
Russian Naval historians, like Nikolai Cherkashin, are not only insulted by this take on the cause of the K-129’s demise, they say the true cause is much easier to pinpoint: They say an American vessel, possibly the USS Swordfish, collided with the Soviet submarine.
Despite the fact that the US government has turned over many documents about Project Azorian and what it found to the Russian government, many in the Russian Navy stand by their theory that it was far too easy for the US to locate the K-129 on the bottom of the Pacific, given the technology of the time. According to these theories, Project Azorian was nothing more than an elaborate cover-up disguised as ... an elaborate cover-up. We can neither confirm nor deny that we exactly understand how that would have worked in practice or execution.
It’s one of the more solemn moments of the Cold War, and one that the Glomar Response helped keep a secret for a very long time.LATERAL CUTS:What Lies Beneath (https://radiolab.org/podcast/what-lies-beneath)
EPISODE CREDITS:
Reported by - Julia Barton
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Like tens of millions of people, Stephen Dubner thought he had a penicillin allergy. Like the vast majority, he didn’t. This misdiagnosis costs billions of dollars and causes serious health problems, so why hasn’t it been fixed? We find out in this update of a 2025 episode.
SOURCES:
Kimberly Blumenthal, allergist-immunologist and researcher at the Mayo Clinic.
Theresa MacPhail, associate professor of science and technology studies at Stevens Institute of Technology.
Thomas Platts-Mills, professor of medicine at the University of Virginia.
Elena Resnick, allergist and immunologist at Mount Sinai Hospital.
RESOURCES:
Allergic: Our Irritated Bodies in a Changing World, by Theresa MacPhail (2023).
"Evaluation and Management of Penicillin Allergy: A Review," by Erica S. Shenoy, Eric Macy, and Theresa Rowe (JAMA, 2019).
"The Allergy Epidemics: 1870–2010," by Thomas Platts-Mills (The Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology, 2016).
"Randomized Trial of Peanut Consumption in Infants at Risk for Peanut Allergy," by George Du Toit, Graham Roberts, et al. (The New England Journal of Medicine, 2015).
EXTRAS:
"The Freakonomics Radio Guide to Getting Better," series by Freakonomics Radio (2026).
"Doctors Know They Prescribe Too Many Antibiotics. Why Don’t They Stop?" by Freakonomics, M.D. (2022).
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Is the oxymoron really “the secret sauce to everything”? That’s the case Ingels makes in this debut episode of our new video show Better in Person, filmed in Stephen Dubner’s living room.
If you'd like to see the video version of Better in Person, watch it on YouTube or Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
As we move through the world, it's easy to imagine we're processing everything that happens around us and then deciding how to respond. But psychologist and neuroscientist Norman Farb says our brains actually navigate the world by coming up with mental maps. These maps act like an autopilot system, allowing us to navigate our lives more efficiently. But sometimes, they can lead us astray, leaving us stuck on a path of negativity and unhappiness. This week, in a favorite episode from 2024, we talk with Norman Farb about how we can update our internal maps and see the world more clearly. Then, Dave Evans answers your questions about radical acceptance.
If you love listening to Hidden Brain, you can now watch it as well! Check out our new YouTube channel, and be sure to subscribe so you don't miss any of our upcoming videos. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
This is the abbreviated version of Checkup's call-in on road rage. As we enter the summer driving season, that means drama on Canadian streets and highways. We hear the best of Canadian's encounters on the road, and psychotherapist Julie Christiansen will tell you how to keep your own temper in check the next time you get cut off on the highway.
It's summer driving season, and that means drama on Canadian roads and highways. Hear as Canadians share their stories -- including a man who was stabbed, and a woman who broke up a fight on Christmas Eve. Also hear from psychotherapist Julie Christiansen about how turn down the heat when you're on the brink of road rage yourself.
The Ontario government is raising the speed limits on some highways this summer. Listen to whether Canadians think our roads and highways are already too fast -- or still too slow? Also listen to hear why driving instructor Sean McDonald says you may not be as good a driver as you think you are, and road infrastructure expert Matti Siemiatycki will tell us how Canadian roads can be built less for speed -- and more for safety.
This ICYMI episode takes you back to March 30, 1980. The hostage crisis in Iran was underway. It had been 149 days since Iranian students had initially taken 66 Americans hostage at the United States embassy in Tehran. Canadian diplomats had recently helped six American slip out country. The story made international headlines and was a point of pride for many Canadians. But not everyone was happy to be helping the U.S. administration. Ken Taylor was the Canadian Ambassador to Iran and helped the Americans escape. He was was on Cross Country Checkup on March 30, 1980.
Lauren Brown gets goosebumps. A lot. Sometimes several times a day. When her partner, writer Carmen Maria Machado, noticed it...she couldn't stop thinking about it. Why does she get them in so many different situations? What’s happening in her body and what does it mean? We take that question and run with it. We face chilly winds, sudden frights, and moments when the world seem to shift under your feet to figure out what the little bumps on our skin might be trying to tell us.
Special thanks to Rachel Gross, Gregory RupikEPISODE CREDITS:
Reported by Maria Paz Gutierrez
Produced by Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindhu Gnanasambandan
Fact-checking by Angely Mercado
EPISODE CITATIONS:Videos -
Hallelujah (https://zpr.io/6ak2f), performed by Rufus Wainwright, accompanied by 1500 singers
De Ushuaia a La Quiaca (https://zpr.io/PcYbN)
Alysa Liu wins the Olympic gold medal for the United States (https://zpr.io/Q7pPNkYSTGVd)
Books -
Her Body and Other Parties, by Carmen Maria Machado
On Muscle: The Stuff That Moves Us and Why It Matters, by Bonnie Tsui (https://www.bonnietsui.com/)
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Radiolab is supported by listeners like you. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab (https://members.radiolab.org/) today.
Follow our show on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook @radiolab, and share your thoughts with us by emailing radiolab@wnyc.org.
Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
